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Wiki style changes

I was contacted recently by Curse personnel working on a revamp of the main page. They're planning on making the front page a lot more impressive and that's something I welcome. However, they also plan on making some significant style changes that will apply throughout the wiki.

Critically, the main article background texture will be removed, and replaced by a pale plain colour; the current header bar will be removed in lieu of a plain extension of the new article background colour; and all fonts for the wiki will be changed. While I'm in favour of many of the changes planned to the front page, I am not in favour of all of the changes for the rest of the wiki.

You can see an impression of the new look here, as opposed to the current look. (The cards are obviously missing.)

As for my thoughts, I'll quote what I said in my email to the manager involved:

The most important point is the background. We've lost the warm parchment skin and gained a paler plain colour instead. The new colour doesn't go very well with the red, is a lot colder, and doesn't match the Hearthstone colour scheme; the previous tones were chosen to match the game itself, which seems like a good idea for branding.

The top bar is also gone. The previous one reprised the colour themes from the sidebar, strengthening the feel and matching the wood-panel style of both the side bar and again Hearthstone itself. The new non-bar feels very plain and an abrupt start to each page. We've also lost the shading on the edge of the article space, which was nice, and again feels abrupt.

I'm not sure how I feel about either font change, but the header font at least looks characterful; the main text font feels a bit plain.

Unfortunately the developers involved don't agree, and the changes will be implemented on the wiki this Friday.

I won't go into too much depth, but I do feel that we, the editors who have made this wiki what it is - and on whom its ongoing success solely depends - should have some input as to how the wiki looks and feels. I don't believe this is something that should be decided for us, and left for us to live with. Especially as we are the ones who will be spending so much time reading, editing and looking at the new style on every page from here on out. I also believe that as long-time players of Hearthstone and users of the wiki, we are in an excellent position to provide perspective on what feels right for a Hearthstone wiki, and what it's like to work on and regularly read the wiki; something the developers do not have an abundance of.

Many of the other changes (see an early draft of the new front page) are in my opinion good, and based on useful user data that Curse has access to. I am all for such improvements to the site. I am also aware that we all have our own sense of aesthetics, and changes are often uncomfortable at the time. Those reading this may well disagree with my opinions and welcome the style changes: and if so, I am willing to accept this. Either way, I believe the preferences of the editors should have some weight, and that the best solution is one that works for those who will be working, building the site on a daily basis, as well as for those whose job it is to host and support the network.

I would therefore like to invite the community to comment on the upcoming changes. Given the looming deadline the window for comment is brief; please add your thoughts now if you wish to have a say. -- Taohinton (talk) 03:35, 23 February 2017 (UTC)

The main thing is the background. I strongly agree with your objections there. The top bar, I do like the red too but not so much that I'm confident it's anything but status quo bias :) I'm neutral on font and front page. Again, the background is a big deal. I'm not sure what advantage taking away the warm texture could possibly have. - jerodast (talk) 04:43, 23 February 2017 (UTC)

Just dropping a note they modified the mockup they provided me for the main page. There are some changes coming to the class and hero section and to the area left of that. May end up getting left work-in-progress depending on how much I'm able to finish tonight. :( — oOeyes

04:53, 23 February 2017 (UTC)

I'm fine with any change shown so far. As long as it doesn't break the website.Shammiesgun (talk) 06:05, 23 February 2017 (UTC)

I would say I agree with all of your concerns, Taohinton. The current style looks a lot more like what I'd expect a Hearthstone-centered wiki to look like than the new style does. The main page overhaul looks alright, but the overall style change looks a bit too cold and artificial, which feels at odds with the aesthetic of Hearthstone itself of being a cozy inn with warm color tones and wooden panels, if that makes any sense. But maybe that's just me having an instinctively negative reaction to big changes. --DeludedTroll (talk) 10:23, 23 February 2017 (UTC)

Yeah, main page updates are still a work in progress until the night. In particular, the images for the classes are not yet updated. Apologies. — oOeyes

10:45, 23 February 2017 (UTC)

I think the reason why Curse decided to go with a darker color scheme is that:

It fits the style of the "Curse" brand (darker tones, darker red)
It changes the background color SO much, that people who revisit the wiki will probably notice Curse as the "one" who made the change.

I'm neutral in the color scheme, even though it is decidedly darker. I'm sure the makeover will benefit Curse branding, and "rejuvenate" the site with a fresh look. The pointers I mentioned is what they're after. The main important thing to see is that the articles are kept intact. Aegonostic (talk) 15:39, 23 February 2017 (UTC)

Hello everyone. I wanted to go ahead and jump into the discussion. For those who don't know me, I'm the Community & Marketing Manager for Gamepedia and this redesign/layout change has been a project I'm heading up. First off, I want to say that we absolutely do value your contributions on the wiki and feedback on these design changes, especially the excitement/appreciation of the layout and content changes. I also really appreciate the self-awareness that some reactions may be from the gut just because things are different than they have been for a long time. I want to apologize to Taohinton as well because it seems as though I communicated that we were going to simply forge ahead without addressing any critiques he raised. You were our first-ever Editor of the Month and part of the inspiration for that program and so I'm sorry that you felt like your concerns were not being heard appropriately.

That said, it seems like the background texture is really the main sticking point in this discussion. I went back to chat with our designers and found that our original mockups actually do call for a parchment texture, which I'm going to work to have implemented ASAP. Although it is lighter than the one used now and removes the edge shading, I hope that maybe it will help to make the design less "sterile" and more welcoming and in-line with the historic look and feel of the wiki. Setting aside the thematic connection with the game itself for a moment, the design justification for the lightening/removal of the background is for readability. Here's a side-by-side comparison: Link -- I, personally, agree that while the current background has a certain warmth to it, the lighter background does make the reading experience a little better. I'd like to see if retaining the parchment texture like this might be more acceptable to everyone. If not, we can test some other options. I do feel fairly strongly about removing the edge shading though, for me it really makes the start of text lines difficult to read and is distracting.

Finally, I just want to say that our aim here is not to charge in and make waves because we can, or because we want to exert control over the wiki and mold it to fit our brand. As Tao mentioned, we spent a lot of time running tests, analyzing traffic data, and working through designs with our expert team here. All of that is because we want to make the wiki a better experience for the thousands and thousands of people who come here to use (and hopefully appreciate!) the content that you help create. This is something we're aiming to do with other top wikis on the platform as well, and the process has been a learning experience for us for sure. CrsBenjamin 16:37, 23 February 2017 (UTC)

Hi Benjamin, and thanks for joining us! I hope you don't mind me opening up the discussion to the rest of the community; as I say these are changes that will affect all of us so it only felt right to get everybody's thoughts, especially from our top editors.

Thanks also for providing some alternative ideas regarding the background, which I agree is the main concern, if not the only one. I'll be interested to hear from the other editors whether the colour or the texture is the bigger issue. The addition of the texture does mitigate the new base colour, but I'm not sure if does much to help it fit with the rest of the wiki colours, or to make it feel much less cold. I agree readability has to be a concern, but I'd ideally like to find a solution without sacrificing too many other strengths. The current background is desirable because it matches both the wiki palette and that of the game; the warmth is not only pleasant as a reader, but as DeludedTroll mentions captures the feeling of the game itself, something which I think is worth keeping if possible. Since I know the texture has been mentioned previously as an obstacle to readability, perhaps a warmer plain colour would be an alternative to a colder parchment texture?

I'm also unclear about the font changes. The new image you've provided shows significantly different font sizes than currently used for both the article header and base text (as seen in the contrast between left and right - or live). Are these intended changes? I also notice the font colours have changed from a deep wine-ish colour to black and orangish; presumably these are the latest iterations?

With talk of a texture and/or changed background tone, it's hard to otherwise respond regarding the edge shading or top bar; it would be good to see the latest batch of changes live on the Spyro wiki (or at least some full screen mockups), so we can get a better sense of what it would look like. A compromise if the current edge shading is problematic due to overlapping the text might be to reduce it to the actual edge of the space rather than a fat chunk, which might still help the cut-off feel less abrupt without troubling the eyes. Since you mention finding bits difficult to read, I should say I do find the font colour for the new top bar quite hard to read, due to the small contrast between the font and background.

Anyway, I'll leave it there for now, and look forward to hearing people's thoughts. Thanks again for discussing possible solutions. -- Taohinton (talk) 17:58, 23 February 2017 (UTC)

All I have currently in my queue is the remaining main page adjustments, so the current version on Spyro is the place to go for font sizing. This is in part because the wiki skins use relative sizing, and that generally isn't a concept that even exists in most software used to make these mockups, so mileage is going to vary on that anyway. The only further adjustments currently in my queue are main page only, though naturally more may be coming. — oOeyes

03:28, 24 February 2017 (UTC)

Most changes to the main page now live on Spyro. Seems I never received all the assets for the new links on the left hand side, though, so that will have to wait until tomorrow. The new parchment is up too. — oOeyes

10:31, 24 February 2017 (UTC)

Now updated with all the images for the links. — oOeyes

10:58, 27 February 2017 (UTC)

Something is off with the positioning of tiles for Arena, Ranked, and Tavern Brawl on Spyro wiki. They're overlapping the expansions/adventures, at least in Chrome. - jerodast (talk) 17:45, 27 February 2017 (UTC)

Oops. It should be fixed now. — oOeyes

07:02, 28 February 2017 (UTC)

ill this wiki be offline for some time when implementing changes? If so, it would be good to check in on the timetable (especially with the reveal of the new expansion Journey_to_Un'Goro). Aegonostic (talk) 21:25, 27 February 2017 (UTC)

This won't require any downtime to push live. As for schedule, apologies, but I haven't received any updates to pass along. — oOeyes

07:02, 28 February 2017 (UTC)

So to clarify, oOeyes: the font size and colour on the current Spyro wiki are (as far as you know) the intended final versions for the new style?

Also, I can't see the parchment, or any difference between the wiki before and after (unless you changed it earlier than I understood). Is that definitely up? -- Taohinton (talk) 14:14, 2 March 2017 (UTC)

As far as I know, the Spyro font sizes are final. The parchment is there between the boxes, but I too am surprised at how subtle it is. I actually had to take a screenshot and zoom in to confirm it's not just the solid color. — oOeyes

16:02, 2 March 2017 (UTC)

Sorry for the long silence, I was out of town last week for a conference. I believe everything is fairly up to date now. The background is less visible on the main page, but more visible on content pages. I've copied over http://spyro.gamepedia.com/Card_draw_effect as an example to check out. CrsBenjamin (talk) 18:39, 7 March 2017 (UTC)

Seeing the spyro article on mobile, the whitespace margin should be increased (right now there's no whitespace margin, on the sides of the article, 5px should be sufficient). Also, I'd like to see an article example of a Hearthstone card. Other than that, I think it looks good. When are the wiki changes to be implemented? Aegonostic (talk) 23:57, 7 March 2017 (UTC)

Since there hasn't been much additional discussion since my last message, what I would like to do is implement the new mainpage on Friday, and then over a period of 2 weeks track some key metrics like how the page is being used, traffic, bounce rate, etc. and then re-convene the discussion. This would give everyone a chance to see it in action, maybe get used to it a little bit, but I do want give another opportunity for discussion to see if there are still strong feelings about some of the changes. Unless there is sharp opposition to this plan, I will get things in motion Friday afternoon. CrsBenjamin (talk) 20:39, 15 March 2017 (UTC)

I definitely would like to see the color of the parchment paper (background-image) to remain the same. Less stress on the eyes on desktop and mobile (because of its lower brightness) and it is a warm "Hearthstone-oriented" color. Aegonostic (talk) 00:50, 16 March 2017 (UTC)

As I've said, the main page looks good and I would be fine with putting that into place. However, regarding the other changes I posed several points in my reply to your post on Feb 23. Have you had the chance to read it?

As an update to my response re: the background colour, the texture has been implemented in the latest Spyro version. It has unfortunately proven not to do much to moderate the "sterile" feel of the new background colour, or to match the game's feel.

In addition, and in response to the point of the fonts, the new font colour makes the argument of the changes being on the basis of readability a little confusing. The new font colour is less clear than the current one, and serves to counter much of the benefit gained from lightening the background. If readability is the goal, at the least the font should be black, and not a wine-ish colour that blends with the tone of the background. To be clear, the font in your readability comparison actually used black, which is not the colour actually planned to go live. Given that the rationale for replacing the warm background with a cold, pale one is readability, changing the font from a clear, strong black to a washy wine colour is a bit hard to understand.

On the upside I agree the new main text font itself is much clearer than the current one. Since the majority of our top editors are in agreement that we would like to keep the background, perhaps for now it would be worth trying simply updating the font? This should boost readability nicely without sacrificing the style's other strengths. -- Taohinton (talk) 04:50, 17 March 2017 (UTC)

Sorry, I'd forgotten about the text changes. I believe they are intentional, but if we move back to the warmer background, which I think we're going to, we'll likely change the font color back as well. I'm not totally sure about the font there though. The image I'd linked is the mockup, so that font would be what was intended, but on the live/beta version it doesn't seem to be changed as dramatically, so I can check on that. I'm going to work with oOeyes to make a few tweaks and then hopefully we can come to something we can take live by next Wednesday or so. 69.85.223.171 17:26, 17 March 2017 (UTC)

Apologies for the delay. I was sidetracked with another wiki redesign. Spyro has received some updates:

Now using the parchment background from the current design. Trying this with the side box shadows left off for the moment.
Text colors have been reverted to those from the current design. (Maybe an accidental change with heading colors or such, but should be mostly back the way it was.)
Not sure if this makes much difference, but it turns out there are two different versions of the Lato font. Spyro has been adjusted to use the first version of Lato rather than the second, though since they are both Lato, the change won't affect what you see if you have the font installed (since it will use your version).

— oOeyes

08:41, 21 March 2017 (UTC)

For convenience, the differences between the two website designs are:

I'd say that the revert to the original parchment color is great. I like the revamped main page, except that it doesn't include the Twitter box and the Curse video highlight. I'm probably neutral to everything else color-wise font-wise. Aegonostic (talk) 14:41, 21 March 2017 (UTC)

Thanks oOeyes for making these adjustments and laying out the comparisons. I know there are a few minor tweaks we'll need to make as we bring this over to the live wiki (adding padding to the left margin, e.g.), but I think it seems like we're at a point where we can do this, start collecting some info about how the new main page is used by users on the wiki, but not be disrupting the existing style in any major way that's firmly unacceptable to the community here. Thanks everyone for your continued participation, opinions, and willingness to work with us on this project. CrsBenjamin (talk) 20:54, 21 March 2017 (UTC)

Updated the feature block for Journey to Un'Goro as well along with some other minor adjustments. CrsBenjamin is looking into something for the featured streamer box, so I won't be bringing the design over until I hear back on that. — oOeyes

04:11, 23 March 2017 (UTC)

Skin/Main Page Feedback

Hey everyone. The new skin is now in place! As discussed, we'll give it a little time for everyone to check out and get used to and then we can reconvene discussion if there are issues. We'll also be keeping an eye on some key stats and metrics from our side and I'll share anything interesting we see. If you find any bugs/issues with the CSS/JS changes that were implemented, let us know! CrsBenjamin (talk) 00:01, 24 March 2017 (UTC)

I'm still unsure about the transparent formatting of tables. Aegonostic (talk) 07:07, 25 March 2017 (UTC)

Hooray parchment! Other feedback:

One big problem is that dividers underneath section headers are essentially invisible with their current color, making the sections harder to identify and creating odd looking gaps in the page.
I noticed that the "Hearthpedia" section of the left menu has only links to professional/tournament Hearthstone information. This a) doesn't seem quite like the right heading for those links and b) hasn't been updated in quite a long time. I propose removing all of it (links and pages, or at least the dated information on the pages). (No idea if this is related to anything new or has always been an issue.)
In other news, I have been noticing that more and more, leaving pages open has a chance of chewing up memory and causing constant CPU and network activity. Naturally, this is due to ads. This is a serious detriment to user experience. Wowhead has been suffering in the grips of awful, exploitative ads for the past couple years, which has reduced the popularity of the site and led many formerly die hard fans like myself to install AdBlock for the first time ever because the site is simply unusable otherwise. I hope we can maintain some standards for our ads to prevent that from happening.

- jerodast (talk) 08:11, 28 March 2017 (UTC).

Yeah, I should have adjusted that with the return of the parchment too. The mockups didn't have that, so I compromised by putting a faint border in to blend the standard wiki style with the mock, but the parchment made it too faint. So let's try this to go back to my original intent.

Went ahead and took off the Hearthpedia links for now, since it looks like the steam died on that pretty quickly. As for ads, that's above my pay grade, so I'll have to kick that up. — oOeyes

12:33, 28 March 2017 (UTC)

New dividers look pretty good. Thanks! - jerodast (talk) 05:48, 29 March 2017 (UTC)

New card set rotation time

I started playing the game back when Ol'Gods still had the free pack quests, and never saw card sets rotating into Wild, and I'm not sure when it will be active. At the start of the month, or when the expansion gets released? Because April is considered as the first month in Year of the Mammoth, while March is the last month in Year of the Kraken. TheGamer765 (talk) 00:19, 24 March 2017 (UTC)

Card sets rotate into Wild with the release date of the new expansion of a Hearthstone year, so the Year of the Mammoth will begin on April 6th (or whenever Journey to Un'Goro releases). The intervals of "months" are not really an actual guideline. Aegonostic (talk) 07:06, 25 March 2017 (UTC)

Thanks, good to know that! TheGamer765 (talk) 08:33, 25 March 2017 (UTC)

How to take a screenshot of a card?

In A_Mammoth_of_a_New_Year#Special_cards there are a bunch of cards that have art put just by print screen and then dump into a file. All the other cards show the proper art.

What's the best way to do it?

Jeldred (talk) 01:15, 31 March 2017 (UTC)

Until Hearthpwn puts the pictures up, screenshots are the best method we have for card images. There should be other ways to get the images though, such as through a data-mining program, but I'm not familiar with those. HearthSim might have documentation on such a program: https://hearthsim.info/. Aegonostic (talk) 06:30, 31 March 2017 (UTC)

Stepping back

Some of you have probably noticed that I've been a lot less active on the wiki than usual, lately, especially with all the new stuff being added. Unfortunately, after many years of editing and admin-ing, due to 'real life' issues I will no longer be able to continue in my responsibilities for the wiki. I've been fighting against and delaying this for a long time now, but it's time to make it official.

As I've stepped back from my former duties, some of you in particular have stepped up to take on the extra work, and I am very glad to see this happen. I've spent the last 3 1/2 years developing and working on the site, including designing and arranging most of the infrastructure (hefty technical work aside - thanks oOEyes), developing the site's style, liaising with oOEyes on things such as imports, and generally doing a ton of heavy lifting and day to day editing. When I started the game was still in beta, and the site was somewhat embryonic; a few years later and it's a thriving, diverse and detailed site, with a variety of content - from notes and card lists, to histories and strategy, to art, lore and advanced mechanics - and a thick sediment of trivia and memories, regularly visited by millions of readers from around the world. So I'm very glad to see the community working to maintain this awesome resource we've created together, and I hope you'll continue to do so.

For the last few years I've made it my job to keep the site up to the minute, add almost every blog, interview and developer tweet out there, and generally make everything the best I could make it. I've had a great time and learnt a lot, but it's time to lay down my self-imposed duties and step back to a less intensive role. I'm sure I'll still be editing here and there, but from now on I won't be making it my responsibility to keep every bit of the site up to date, document each new feature and change, or generally tidy and fix problems.

As the admin for the site for the last 3 1/2 years, as I step back I will be granting admin status to some other editors. However, I would first like to say a few words about the difference between an admin and a community leader; the two are commonly confused, but are in fact quite separate. A community leader is an editor who takes on the responsibility of editing, updating, expanding, maintaining and improving the site, tackling challenges and decisions. An admin is simply a respected editor with a few special privileges, to allow them to carry out certain administrative duties, such as deleting pages, blocking vandals, and protecting pages. Admins can of course also be community leaders if they are active and productive on the wiki, but conferring admin status does not equal appointing a 'boss' or leader, only someone who is willing to tend to administrative duties, and generally keep an eye on the wiki. The role of community leader does not come with a special wiki status, and is not something anyone else can appoint.

While I hope that many of you will step up to the role of community leader, I have therefore decided to grant admin privileges to User:DeludedTroll and User:Jerodast. From now on they'll be able to help with admin tasks like deleting unwanted pages.

One other role that I've held on the wiki is the main holder of knowledge about the systems and workings, as well as conventions, for much of the wiki. I'm in the process of writing up a fairly extensive guide to most of the systems and procedures, to help newer editors to learn the ropes, or troubleshoot when things go wrong, and to provide guides and checklists for when performing tasks such as handling imports or adding a new expansion. I'll be posting links on the talk pages of related pages, with the aim of providing a kind of documentation system for common tasks.

It's not easy to step away, but I am looking forward to the freedom and the free time, and getting back to looking at Hearthstone simply as a game, rather than as the (very enjoyable) job I've made it into. What a long, strange trip it's been.

Have fun, be excellent to each other, and thanks for all the fish. -- Taohinton (talk) 05:19, 4 April 2017 (UTC)

Tears have fallen by the sides of my eyes :O Thanks for everything Taohinton, you've been the most wonderful contributor on this wiki, I wish you best of the best in your real life and I hope you will still visit this site frequently/moderately! The best of the best to you! This post seems so minuscule compared to yours, but I just want to let you know that I personally love all the editing and updating and developing that you've done to this wiki to make it grow so much. I really hope you will continue to visit and keep an eye on things from time to time, and me personally, as probably most of the editors here are too, am very thankful that you've stayed onto this wiki for so long. This site is super fantastic, and super fun to use. We will try to maintain it the best we can, at a level that will almost match yours. I hope these are not final words to you, it's super sad to see you step away from this wiki, but what must be done, must be done, I can only imagine. Aegonostic (talk) 05:53, 4 April 2017 (UTC)

Thank you for all the effort you've put into this over the years. This wiki has been easily one of the most successful wikis I've managed, if not the single most, and that's been in large part thanks to you. I'm sorry to see you have to pull back, but I know how life gets in the way of wikis sometimes. Good luck in your future endeavors. — oOeyes

06:05, 4 April 2017 (UTC)

Not sure what I can say here that hasn't already been said by Aegonostic and OOeyes, but I wish you the best of luck and hope to still see you around sometimes. We'll do our best to carry on the amazing work you've done over the years. --DeludedTroll (talk) 07:22, 4 April 2017 (UTC)

Just wanted to say thanks again for all of the hard work you've done. You've been an amazing part of the Gamepedia community as admin here on Hearthstone, and you've had an impact on millions of HS players worldwide! We of course hope you'll continue to make appearances and maybe someday re-join us here or for other projects. "Well Played!" CrsBenjamin (talk) 21:52, 11 April 2017 (UTC)

Editor's Handbook

A little later than I had planned, but I have finally posted my guide to the wiki's systems and conventions. As mentioned above, this should be useful for giving newer editors a grounding in the basics (and a place to direct those with questions), and as reference for the more complex and rarely used details. It also includes quite a few guides and action lists for key tasks such as adding new cards and handling data imports. Hopefully it will be helpful for those who are interested, or when trying to figure out why something isn't working as intended.

I've added links on the talk pages of the main related pages, with the aim of creating a kind of documentation system for common tasks. In theory, the guide can be updated and expanded to match the wiki's ongoing development, and to serve as a central documentation for the running of the wiki.

The handbook can be found here. -- Taohinton (talk) 20:47, 11 April 2017 (UTC)