The table of all minions with Triggered effect tag that is generated automatically is missing the BRM cards, even though said BRM cards are correctly tagged with Triggered effect (for example, no Imp Gang Boss). What's going on? --Patashu (talk) 10:57, 30 April 2015 (UTC)
- If you're referring to the visual listings, that's because that's not automatic - I've manually created and maintained the list until now, but didn't get round to adding the BRM cards. I have a plan for converting this list to automation too, but I've been waiting until Eyes was less busy. -- Taohinton (talk) 01:49, 1 May 2015 (UTC)
- ...however it seems more likely you did indeed mean the table itself - several cards were missing due to typos in setting the tags for those specific cards. You can check this by looking at which tags/abilities are shown in the infobox for the card - if some are missing, you can add them through |addabilities or |tags. If they're present, the card page and/or the page with the table on probably just need resaving. -- Taohinton (talk) 02:03, 1 May 2015 (UTC)
Deathrattle and Inspire[edit source]
I suspect if Harvest Golem read "When this minion dies, summon a 2/1 Damaged Golem" instead of "Deathrattle: Summon a 2/1 Damaged Golem" it would be listed on this page. Yes, there is a mechanical difference as well, but the main reason we treat it separately is that Blizzard has marked it as separate by giving it both a special icon and (unlike Poison) a keyword. Inspire should be treated the same - it does not say "When trigger X occurs, do Y", it says "Inspire: Do Y". Either both abilities should appear here (perhaps with "Main article" links as there is with Inspire already) or neither should. - jerodast (talk) 03:17, 24 July 2015 (UTC)
- I agree that Deathrattles are basically fancy triggered effects (with some weirdness like the fact that they activate even though the owner is removed from play already etc, although there are triggered effects that work in the hand such as Bolvar's so this technically isn't an issue), but if we're adding Deathrattles, should we also add Secrets? --Patashu (talk) 06:59, 24 July 2015 (UTC)
- Basically, we need to establish what is and isn't a triggered effect. Excuse the rambling as I try to breakdown what exactly we're aiming for ;)
- There are two main characteristics of triggered effects: they have a lightning bolt icon, and they trigger every time the corresponding event occurs. Secondarily, they happen while the card is in play (not while in the hand, or during a specific entry or exit phase). I believe these characteristics are true of all lightning bolt icon-ed cards.
- In a broad sense, any effect that is triggered can be called a 'triggered effect'. However, that would turn this page into a huge list of almost every type of effect in the game, and I don't think that would provide any value for readers. The broader concept of having an effect is better covered by Ability, or else a new page. The narrower definition is useful partly because it gathers together effects which don't otherwise have a home or central listing on the wiki, as well as subgroups of very similarly triggered effects, such as all those which trigger from casting spells; both for looking at all related cards, and also to state functions and rules for such effects, e.g., they activate before the spell itself takes effect.
- In-hand effects like Bolvar don't activate while they're in play, only in the hand; while lightning bolts activate only while in play, and not while in the hand. Deathrattles only activate after the minion is destroyed, while lightning bolts will not activate once the minion is destroyed (epitomised by Cult Master timings). Battlecries only activate during the process of being put into play directly from the hand, and never while in play. Secrets activate only while in play, but activation effectively destroys them, preventing them from being activated more than once; while lightning bolts can be activated an unlimited number of times without destroying or altering the possessing card. Secrets are also special in that they are not attached to a minion or weapon, while lightning bolts always are. To me, these differences show that none of these types of effect should be considered 'triggered effects'.
- If that is established, there are only a few exceptions: Poison minions, which function identically to triggered effects, but have a different icon; and now Inspire effects, which function identically to triggered effects, but have a different icon, and have a special keyword. (Although of course there are anomalies such as Water Elemental, which instead of a full-blown triggered effect simply has an innate quality that has an effect?)
- The issue of a keyword is certainly convenient for segregating types of effect. We have to remember though that, as explained at the bottom of Ability, the developers choose to add or not to add keywords quite arbitrarily, solely for the sake of convenience. Yong Woo has stated that if we get more elusive minions in the future, they may well add a keyword, to save reading "cannot be targeted by..." every single time, and in order to emphasise the common ability. There is therefore no meaningful significance to the existence of a keyword.
- Okay, I'm happy to go with your more restrictive definition of triggered effect. In which case Inspire should definitely not be here.
- Personally I would consider card phrasing to be more definitive than icon, since an icon is just a detail-less symbol whereas phrasing is specifically written for every single card and effect. Try not to read too much into developer quotes - these things come from interviews with a limited and uneven set of questions, they aren't supposed to be a comprehensive bible of Hearthstone design principles. Sure, keywords can be arbitrary, but as Poison demonstrates, icons can be just as arbitrary.
- That said, if I had to make a choice, I'd happily choose for both Poison and Inspire to be split from here.
- As you've pointed out, the qualifications for being a Triggered effect aren't so much a spectrum but a multi-dimensional field, with at least 3 dimensions: Mechanics, Icon, and Text. Each dimension may have its own cutoff point, so let's not assume Poison and Inspire MUST be linked - Poison differs from "pure" triggers along only one axis, but Inspire also differs on an entirely different one. Personally I could go either way with Poison and its icon discrepancy. But when it comes to the text, Inspire CLEARLY sets itself apart:
Icon "When X, Y" Other written-out text Keyword Lightning bolt "Pure" triggered effects Forgetful, Water Ele Other icon Poison Inspire
- (Ignoring the plane of differing mechanics, in which lies Bolvar, Battlecry and Deathrattle.) You can draw an oval around these pieces in several ways, but clearly Inspire is gonna be the last thing to get included. Since we don't want this to be a bloated catchall page, let's just keep that oval small, and leave Inspire on the outside. - jerodast (talk) 06:13, 25 July 2015 (UTC)
- I Agree with jerodast more here. I believe the absence/presence of a Lightning Bolt icon is arbitrarily decided by Blizzard. When Emperor Thaurissan was released, it initially had no Lightning Bolt icon and it was patched in later. According to Taohinton's definition, Thaurissan would have been excluded initially from this page, then included, if only because of the presence of this visual indicator. Another example is Gorehowl, it used to have the Lightning Bolt icon, but it was removed in late closed beta without any changes in card functionality. This indicates to me that the presence/absence of the icon is purely arbitrary and for visual purposes only. I do not think that "Triggered Effect" should be limited by the presence of a visual icon, unless clearly stated at the top of the page. Xinhuan (talk) 08:34, 25 July 2015 (UTC)
- Yes, I didn't really mean to say that the icon was a defining factor, just that it was present on the vast majority of such effects, with a few exceptions. In my mind Thaurissan would be a triggered effect all along (its "activate each turn at the end of the turn" behaviour clearly shows that), simply another exception in that it didn't have a lightning bolt icon. Gorehowl is also an exception in that it's worded as an innate property rather than an effect or imperative action; you could consider that a different innate behaviour, or a triggered behaviour, although the original presence of a lightning bolt suggests it at least used to have that type of mechanic happening under the hood - any up-to-date technical knowledge regarding that, Xinhuan? Water Elemental/Snowchugger are basically a cousin of Poison effects, just without any icon or flash at all. Honestly to my mind that makes them triggered effects, but obviously not in any highlighted way. I think conceptually the difference is probably that the devs wanted it to feel like they just are "freezy", rather than it being a special triggered ability. This could in theory be the same reason Gorehowl's lightning bolt got removed.
- Jerodast, I agree that the icons are arbitrary, but I disagree that the keywords are any less so. In truth they're the same thing - a convenient standard to immediately communicate to players the type of effect in play. I don't think there's anything more to it than that. Check out the Brode explanation if you haven't already - it makes it pretty clear why they do and don't add keywords, and not in response to straitjacketing questions. Also remember that the Poison icon was only added during beta - before that Emperor Cobra was just like Water Elemental, appearance- and phrasing-wise. I think they added the Poison vial simply because of people forgetting, to "remind you about his venomous power."
- In terms of behaviour, all of the cards discussed here (except arguably Gorehowl, but probably that too) are the same type of effect:
Activates: Any number of times While in play While in hand While being played from hand After death Lightning bolts YES YES Water Elemental/Snowchugger YES YES Poison YES YES Inspire YES YES Pre-Lightning bolt Emperor Thaurissan YES YES Gorehowl YES YES Battlecries if returned YES Deathrattles NO except Malorne/Duplicate YES In-hand effects YES YES Secrets NO YES
- To me, this puts them fairly neatly in the same category. I imagine a Venn diagram, and these would all be in the same overlap. While there are clearly various subtypes (such as those already listed in the article) In terms of overall Hearthstone effect types, this to me says they should be grouped together.
- If we do include Poison and Inspire here as subtypes, we don't have to list them, but could simply link to the page, as currently for Inspire; Poison is only 3 and so is probably fine as is. As for the non-iconed exceptions, we could always add a subtype to tie them into the main behaviour, to avoid confusion at the lack of a lightning bolt. -- Taohinton (talk) 16:08, 25 July 2015 (UTC)
- Based on recorded game logs generated by Hearthstone, there are several types of actions - ATTACK, CONTINUOUS, POWER, SCRIPT, TRIGGER, DEATHS, PLAY, FATIGUE and ACTION. PLAY occurs whenever you play a card or hero power. ATTACK occurs when you issue an Attack. DEATHS occur when one or more minions die (cards get moved from zone=PLAY to zone=GRAVEYARD during this action). POWER is the "main action" of a card or effect (the direct effects of a spell, hero power or Battlecry). FATIGUE happens when you take fatigue damage. SCRIPT, ACTION and CONTINUOUS does not appear to be used (or maybe they are used in adventures/tutorials). Pretty much everything else is a TRIGGER action (deathrattles, lightning bolts, poison, secrets, etc). TRIGGER is also used between step changes (there are 7 steps per turn - MAIN_NEXT, MAIN_READY, MAIN_START_TRIGGERS, MAIN_START, MAIN_ACTION, MAIN_END and MAIN_CLEANUP), and for updating minion positions on the board, card positions in hand, etc, so it is kind of hard to say what exactly a TRIGGER action is.
- Pretty much, anything that is a "reaction" effect that occurs in response to something else happening, is a TRIGGER based on the game logs. Even so, I don't think using game logs is a great idea for deciding what is a Triggered Effect or not, because as you said, "any effect that is triggered can be called a 'triggered effect'.", and that is most probably how the game is coded. Xinhuan (talk) 17:04, 25 July 2015 (UTC)
Lock and Load[edit source]
Related to the above discussion regarding what exactly constitutes a triggered effect - Lock and Load. Its effect is comparable to Loatheb or Millhouse Manastorm, but it essentially creates a trigger which can be activated multiple times while the overall effect is in place. Looking at my table, it ticks all the boxes, except that it presumably isn't visible anywhere (although it's possible there'll be a UI element), and expires automatically.
- I want to point out the following 2 cards as well: Flame Leviathan and Burrowing Mine. They are also triggered effects in my books since they "activate in response to specific events". In this case, they trigger when you draw them into your hand from your deck. Obviously, since these cards are not on the Battlefield when they trigger, they can't hand any icons on them like Lightning bolt/Poison/Deathrattle icons. Another one is the new Fist of Jaraxxus which triggers on being discarded. These are by no means the only "exceptional triggered effects" as you put it, because we are only going to get more of them with new cards.
- I don't know the best way to really handle this, since it is clear that the original intent of the article is to document cards that have the lightning symbol, but it has since grown a bit more than that by including Inspire and Poison, but excluded Deathrattles. -- Xinhuan (talk) 20:22, 8 August 2015 (UTC)
- I don't agree that they're in the same category. In terms of my table, none of those cards are triggered while in play, but only when passing through a specific event. This makes them much more like Battlecries (Flame Leviathan, Burrowing Mine) or Deathrattles (Fist of Jaraxxus). They also don't trigger repeatedly.
- We already have On-draw effect for cards which do something when they're drawn (very similar to Battlecry or Deathrattle); I was considering making an On-discard effect page, but with only 1 such card it's a bit overkill at present. If we end up with more cards which do something when you discard them, I will happily do so. -- Taohinton (talk) 21:25, 8 August 2015 (UTC)
- The latest exception: Echoing Ooze. It activates at the end of the turn, but only once. It also lacks the lightning bolt icon, although as we've seen this isn't entirely consistent. It's described by Brode as "unlike any other card", and indeed is unique in the game.
- My feeling would be it's probably easiest to consider it a triggered effect, but it's clearly an exceptional one.
- The above discussion is a big one on my list of things to get back to, but if you want my gut reaction to these cases I'd say that Lock and Load imposes a triggered effect on the current turn, yes (and so does Ooze). I'd also say Loatheb and Millhouse impose Ongoing effects on the next turn. AND I'd say Flame Leviathan and Burrowing Mine ARE triggered, and there's a good case for Fist. The fact that Xin and I both instinctively viewed them this way exemplifies the problem with applying strictly mechanical categorization rules when our intuition would include other factors.
- Again, this is something I'd like to come back to in more detail when I have time. But in general, I worry about attempting to overdefine extremely broad terms like "triggered" based purely on our own arbitrary taxonomy with no official sources. In the absence of a rulebook, sure, we identify mechanics as best we can and give them the most appropriate names possible. But when we start saying that effects that are literally triggered aren't "Triggered effects", we're basically inventing our own language that's different from English and Warcraft and Hearthstone, and that's not very helpful to documenting the game. - jerodast (talk) 03:54, 13 August 2015 (UTC)
- Okay, so there are two distinct questions here. One is about the category of "effects which are triggered"; the other is regarding what we term "effects which come with lightning bolts, or behave significantly similarly to those which do come with lightning bolts".
- The distinctions are obviously significant. A Deathrattle is not a Battlecry is not an "in-hand effect". However, the issue of the terminology is a quite different, and quite valid point.
- I'm very busy at the moment one way or another, so I'll let it sink in for now. But I see what you're saying. The obvious possibility would be essentially remodelling the conceptual effect tree, with two main divisions: ongoing and triggered. Everything we've been discussing would be a triggered effect. Then we'd need to move this page to a new home, and replace it with an article that lists the main sub-divisions.
- There are some questions with this approach. Firstly, we have to find something else to call what are currently called "triggered effects". Lightning bolts? We would also then need another name for the triggered effects which act like lightning bolts but don't have lightning bolts. More importantly, the ugly issue of redundancy also rears its head again at this point. If we're going to the trouble of spelling out that a Battlecry is a triggered effect and a Deathrattle is a triggered effect and a Secret is a triggered effect, what sense does it make to not tag them as triggered effects? But if we do, we're adding that tag to a massive chunk of the cards in the game. (We might also need to consider whether effects like Overload, Combo and Choose One should count as triggered effects - if Battlecry is, then surely they are as well?) The alternative would be to not tag triggered effects at all, but then we'd still need to tag lightning bolts and the "miscellaneous triggered effects" (we'd need a better term than that). It would also be a bit lopsided with ongoing effects tagged but not triggered effects.
- I also agree we should avoid creating our own terminology wherever possible, although you will find there are numerous instances where it's necessary to - as in the names of most of the effect categories. The issue is more that an "in-hand effect" fairly naturally describes "an effect which works while in the hand", while "triggered effect" is indeed misleading when taken at base value. If there were a naturally descriptive term for such effects, it would probably be an "in-play effect", but I'm not sure if that's a better direction to go in than "lightning bolt", which at least is visually expressed. I guess it would solve the problem with the exceptions we've been talking about, though...
- We also have the issue of ongoing effects. As discussed elsewhere, Taunt is probably a kind of ongoing effect. Enrage is probably also an ongoing effect (seems more like it than a triggered effect). Same for Charge, Divine Shield, Freeze, Immune and Windfury. So it seems we would have a lot of redundant tagging if we actually use the "ongoing effect" and "triggered effect" tags consistently.
- The alternative is to assume readers will understand that these keywords are types of triggered or ongoing effects, and only tag those which are not part of a larger subtype. I dislike this though because at the same time as we're trying to make the definition of "triggered effect" as straightforward and comprehensive as possible, we'd be intentionally misleading readers of the card pages into thinking only eg Timber Wolf is an ongoing effect, while Ironfur Grizzly isn't (even though it is). The "ongoing effect" link would then take the reader to a page which informed them that actually all the other cards which aren't described as ongoing effects, are in fact also ongoing effects, but just aren't tagged. None of this is neat, or feels good.
According to the Advanced Rulebook, Inspire cards are not the only triggers related to using a Hero Power: we should add to the list Poisoned Blade, Garrison Commander, Coldarra Drake and Dart Trap. Elekim (talk) 20:28, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
- I've added the first three examples, and updated the tag on Poisoned Blade accordingly. Dart Trap is a Secret and so isn't listed here. I've also revised some sections to make the distinction clearer. -- Taohinton (talk) 19:31, 5 April 2016 (UTC)
Queuing condition and trigger condition[edit source]
I'd like that somewhere in this wiki one can explicitly and clearly find for each trigger in the game which one is its queuing condition and which one (if different) is its triggering condition. I am not able to do it by myself, nor have idea if this should be mentioned in each card's page, in the Triggered effects page, or in the Advanced Rulebook only, but I think this will be definitely an improvement to the wiki. Elekim (talk) 20:28, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
- I'm not clear quite what you're asking for. Can you give some examples? -- Taohinton (talk) 19:32, 5 April 2016 (UTC)
- I came up with the idea while reading the advanced rulebook, in particular the "Trigger conditions and Queuing conditions" section, which lists many examples. In particular, see the different behaviour of Voidcaller and Chillmaw: the first check for Demons only as a trigger condition, the latter as a queuing condition (but does it check again as a trigger condition?). In the Combat section of the advanced rulebook there is also the full list of Trigger conditions and Queuing conditions for all the Secrets involved in the Combat Sequence. I think that listing such conditions (or at least non-trivial ones) for all Secrets, Battlecries, Deathrattles and other triggered effects could be useful, but have no idea if it will be doable nor if it is too early for that, according to the information we currently have. I would like to know your "expert" point of view on this. Elekim (talk) 02:23, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
- Ah, I see. That's certainly valid information, although it would take a fair bit of effort and knowledge to go through them all. I think a brief note on when an effect queues or triggers is quite relevant to individual card pages, and is already present on many. If all examples of a certain type of triggered effect share this behaviour, you could arguably add it here, but this would mean that any future additions would need to be tested as soon as they are added to the game to avoid making false statements. This is not actually possible with any great speed, since cards are revealed days, weeks or months before they are released - and then it may be weeks or months after that before they are tested, and the results written up - leaving a perilously long period where we are simply 'guessing' that the statements on this page are true; not good. A complete list might be appropriate to its own page, probably linked from the advanced rulebook; I would say to add it to that article, but it's already becoming problematically long.
- Overall it's information that's worth assembling, at least on an individual card basis. You might want to see if Patashu already has a partial list, since he does a lot of testing. -- Taohinton (talk) 23:15, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
Standard format cometh[edit source]
As I put forward for discussion on the community discussion page some time ago, the arrival of Standard format means changes for the wiki, the current plan being to remove from the main articles listing for all non-Standard cards - these will instead be listed on Wild format subpages. I'm posting here to make clear that this will apply to this page. The amount of cards shown here is already reaching the limits of the wiki's abilities, and the article would certainly not be able to continue in its current form for much longer. Instead, the arrival of Standard format gives us an alternative solution, by paring down the current content and effectively capping the number of cards we'll ever need to feature here.
I mention this explicitly because this article is created by hand, due to the large number of specific trigger types (which the wiki can't handle producing automatically - I've tried it), and also because I'm aware this is of more ongoing interest to editors focused on advanced topics than most other card list pages. The Wild subpage will still feature a complete list, although the tables may need to be removed if the preference is to maintain the visual listings. Discussions and notes should be added either to this page, or both, in order to avoid duplicated effort and split debates. The Wild page should basically just be the card list itself, since the rules are the same regardless of format - it's only the card list that's different.
- After some improvements to the underlying mediawiki (unless it was simply some unfortunate fluctuation at my end) the wiki can now just about handle automating the card lists for this article, which after a few hours of work I've managed to implement on the page! This page now functions just like all the other lists on the wiki, except that the text required is inputted through
|hiddentagsand has more descriptive names - please check the phrasing stated in the corresponding template on this page to know what precisely to type. I've double-triple-checked and seem to have managed to filter every single current triggered effect into a relevant section, but if a triggered effect is added in the future without a hiddentag, it won't be displayed visually here. I've made the same adjustments to the Wild format page, with a few fitting adjustments. -- Taohinton (talk) 19:47, 31 July 2016 (UTC)
Auto-table conversion[edit source]
- Haha thanks! I actually wrote out a note about this when I finished the work, but looks like I forgot to post it - I've added it above now, for the record! -- Taohinton (talk) 19:47, 31 July 2016 (UTC)
- I was actually JUST starting to tag those cards in the past couple weeks (related to my work on Attack), based on Patashu's lists. Feel free to change tag names as you see fit - I hadn't actually created any card lists on the attack page just yet. Also, all the later triggers (e.g. Bear Trap, Truesilver Champion) aren't tagged yet. - jerodast (talk) 23:49, 31 July 2016 (UTC)
- For the record, this is one of those cases where there are sooo many cards applicable here that my splitter instincts tend to get triggered - we could just refer people to pages on the individual events/effects rather than list out the many, many cards here. But hey, if we want a master list of triggered effects, I can live with that too. - jerodast (talk) 23:53, 31 July 2016 (UTC)
- To be clear, this page isn't actually missing the Secrets, it's just that Secrets have never been listed here; the same goes for Battlecry and Deathrattle cards, for example. However, this does relate to something I was wanting to post about anyway, which is what purpose exactly we would like this page to serve going forward.
- I've put a fair bit of time into exploring the possibilities for this page, both before these comments and now afterwards as well. I had previously run into technical limitations when the number of cards got too high, and the long loading time for this page was giving me the impression that we were nearing the limits. For this reason I had generally suspected that a full master list was not possible at this time. However, after extensive testing of the maximum size this page should need to grow to in the foreseeable future, it turns out the wiki is now a lot more capable than it used to be! Some of this is due to optimisations made by oOEyes over the years, but also we've had a few MediaWiki overhauls which have probably done wonders for the system's lifting power. At any rate, it seems it is now possible to list all 'triggered' cards on the one page.
- With this revelation in mind, there's no longer any reason to not display the Inspire cards. I've also added in the Battlecries and Deathrattles, as well as the on-draw effects and such. This makes sense for a true master list of triggered effects, since it should include all effects which are triggered (with perhaps a small discretion for technicalities, like considering Windfury to 'trigger' when the minion becomes exhausted, or Taunt to 'trigger' when the opponent tries to attack another target).
- Adding all the cards in did increase the loading time for the page immensely, though. I managed to counter this by removing the table. This removes a little functionality (and the ability to search for specific text, classes or stats), but roughly halved the page's loading time, which given how immense it was before I did this (all cards in), is I think a far better option. That said, the page often still takes quite a while to load. The other reason for getting rid of the table is that the MediaWiki can't handle queries with this many parameters, making a unified 'master list' table impossible without double-tagging half the effects.
- With all this said, we do still have some choices. A full master list would provide utility for anyone looking for triggers of pretty much any kind, which is pretty cool to be able to provide on a single page. That said, the result might be that we will end up redirecting to this page from the individual event pages, which might be a little odd, and the collecting together of these cards in one place is more of a technical matter than anything else; not many people will want to read the whole list! Comparison might be useful though. The loading/edit time is pretty long, which could be annoying. A Wild format master list will be doable without a table, but will eventually become unworkable as the list grows. The idea of doing smaller lists on individual event/effect pages might be a better option - we already have most of these in place, albeit with a general 'related' tag instead of a series of specific breakdowns. We could do that as well, of course, although it might get a bit messy if we start shuffling sections and tags around. That said, adding a bunch of extra card listings to specific pages might feel convenient, or just clutter-y, and a lot of cards would already be in the 'related cards' section. The only tags that don't have a page of their own are the card-playing and end/start of turn effects.
- Rather than make any changes I'll leave this open for feedback, and for my own consideration in case any other issues arise. I've made a draft of the master list here, which includes roughly the maximum number of Standard format cards we should ever need to list on the page (format shuffling calculations in mind), with a small margin. Note that the cards which are not yet tagged are simply added at the end to make up the weighting, so the lists aren't actually complete. If you're feeling particularly adventurous, you can load the table version here. -- Taohinton (talk) 07:23, 1 August 2016 (UTC)
- As I said earlier I don't feel this is strictly necessary and tend to favor split over merge. But I'm also fine with it :) Since load times are an issue what I might suggest is that the master list be put on a new "List of standard format triggered effects" page rather than this page. This page can remain about giving people an overview of different kinds of effects and also explaining the general mechanics of how they work, and link to that one at some/various points.
- I would not want to see individual subject pages become dependent on this list, for instance if I'm looking at Damage and want the on-damage triggers I shouldn't also have to load/navigate past the end-of-turn triggers. As I understand it the awesome auto-generated tables/lists you've set up make the duplication (once in master list, once on Damage page) fairly trivial from an editing/maintenance standpoint. In my opinion the specific breakdowns are generally nice but not essential (I mean, we could always break down even more, to some degree we always rely on users reading the cards once the list size is manageable enough), so we can just leave as is on individual pages and break down more as is convenient later.
- The items not included on individual pages could be left here for now, but I do think they should have their own place eventually, where other information like sequences of events would also go. Namely the Turn page and Card page for "end/start of turn" and "playing a card" triggers, respectively. (Arguably the Card page is too broad and we could subdivide "Playing a card" but that's a different discussion.)
- "I would not want to see individual subject pages become dependent on this list" - You mean you wouldn't want to see additional automated lists on subject pages, breaking things down by trigger? I agree that wouldn't be essential. As mentioned I'm trying to cater to readers' interests as much as possible, but it's hard to tell for example how many people are interested in these kinds of lists!
- I agree about Turn; I nearly added lists to Card ages ago but didn't because it is such a general (and lengthy) page; I think a separate "Playing a card" page would indeed be a better place for that.
- So, it had at first sounded like you meant "list all triggers here, and REPLACE lists from individual 'related' pages (e.g. damage-related) with simple links". Which is not what I want, because then finding that information from the specific page would be DEPENDENT on linking to this longer, more general one. However, with your clarification it seems that is not what you suggested. I have no objection to essentially making two INDEPENDENT duplicates of the lists (here AND on specific pages), because it's actually fairly easy to duplicate with the auto-tables. Personally I would pretty much always go to the specific pages for any list I was looking for - a "splitter" mindset - but others may prefer the master, so whatevs.
- When I talk about splitting, I'm just referring to the general wiki philosophy of splitting as opposed to merging (or "lumping"). A master list would be a lump/merge example. Relegating lists to individual pages would be splitting - which we've already done. I belive you're proposing we ALSO merge/lump those into a master list, which is fine with me - best of both worlds, reader's choice :) - jerodast (talk) 03:23, 7 September 2016 (UTC)
After considering the above discussions and the various possible solutions, it seems like the best idea is to go ahead with setting up the "master list": it resolves the ambiguities and disagreements over the definition of "triggered effect"; and provides a useful list of in-game triggers, which at least some editors seem interested in. However, I have decided against visually listing Battlecry, Choose One and Combo cards in the "Playing the minion from the hand" section: removing these cards has significantly reduced loading time, and with it now (at theoretical maximum load) reduced to the level seen on pages like Whispers of the Old Gods, I think it is (at last) acceptable.
In terms of splitting vs lumping, I would generally agree that the individual lists are more useful. However, for technical reasons the opportunities for trigger-based splitting are limited. Specifically, MediaWiki queries don't really do negative selectors: they can't search for cards that don't have certain tags, only those that do. As a result, there isn't a simple way to list triggers on individual topic pages separately to the general 'Related cards' section without either removing the 'Related cards' section or duplicating the cards already listed there. I'm still open to further ideas in such directions, but in the meantime a master list will provide a breakdown not otherwise available on the wiki.
I've therefore gone ahead and updated the page, including updating the lead section to the definition, and revising the many lists. I've also tagged all remaining cards that fit the new definition of "triggered effect". I think it wiser not to go full redundancy though: cards with named "triggered" abilities do not need to be tagged as triggered effects, since e.g., Battlecry is itself a kind of trigger. This is clear enough for readers imo, makes for less messy infoboxes, and doesn't affect the lists at all. -- Taohinton (talk) 04:48, 6 October 2016 (UTC)
I've also updated the Wild format page. Because unlike the main page this page will grow and grow indefinitely, I've preemptively removed the Deathrattles, in order to leave the page functional and reasonably speedy to load for as long as possible - Deathrattles are quite well known and probably not needed visually anyway. I've also made the usual adjustments to reduce loading time by removing the conditional checks, since every section is always populated. -- Taohinton (talk) 05:03, 6 October 2016 (UTC)